What has been proposed here has possibility of success, however I detect that there is no corrective system to deal with, correct, and thereby prevent other mistakes and failures. Perhaps you have some idea on that matter but did not articulate it herein.
I believe that the main failure of Communism has been that there are no sanctions against failure because all in supervisory chain parrot the Party Line ( approved narrative to be followed). When decisions are made upon specious facts that support and hold up the narrative, but the decision fails, nobody who pushed the Party Line can be found at fault to be sanctioned. So nobody is fired/imprisoned/shot due to failure. All such failures then are explained to Party Members as due to insufficient ardor or effort by those at the lowest level, or not enough money was spent to cover the project through to its successful completion. Never can communists blame the Party’s approved but faulty narrative, as being responsible.
Swarms of deciders would appear to be indirectly responsible for a decision that turns out badly. Group dynamics and the need to avoid loss of “face” would make swarm decision makers blend in with each other, and thus dilute individual responsibility for the group’s/swarm’s erroneous decision.
Additionally, swarm decision groups may take way too long to make decisions as each swarmer seeks their own comfort level of input facts which would not coincide with the other swarmers need for sufficient info upon which to base a decision.
The National Treasure known as Thomas Sowell said, “It is hard to imagine a …… more dangerous way of making decisions than by putting those decisions in the hands of people who pay no price for being wrong.”
Proof of efficacy could be seen from a test: Town of 5,000 with small fire, police, roads, water/sewer departments. Take 50 citizens to be swarm deciders and make them be the City Commission. Document results. After two years, see how well things have worked. (Note:having spent 22years in such a small town as an official, I think this would be a fair test of your proposal.)
Perhaps some Libertarians like the Koch brothers would financially back this type of test. Best wishes for success ! !
Also when you think about it, what is the Senate? Congress? It is a form of decentralized group problem solving that worked for a long time. Until it was corrupted.
We 100% agree with this "The National Treasure known as Thomas Sowell said, “It is hard to imagine a …… more dangerous way of making decisions than by putting those decisions in the hands of people who pay no price for being wrong.”
Skin in the game matters.
Also testing it on smaller systems is 100% correct too. We start small then scale. But for the record we have already tested it on other small systems such as businesses.
But most of your other hesitations - as for no accountability - that already happens now. There is zero (see Epstein). Members of a swarm should only be accounabile for not being corrupted and acting in good faith. Those who abuse this should be punished. Otherwise, all the other concerns are testable and fixable.
I’m very interested in this, but every time I read one of your posts, you link to something but don’t actually engage in these systems you just talk about. Let’s actually use the system and make a decision based on swarm intelligence on a small scale. Here on Substack. Like you say, there’s no time for procrastination. Pick a subject, or we could start with a constitutional convention to edit the constitution to incorporate swarm intelligence. I’m in.
We do this very often already for several busnesses. It has also been tested many times for predictive markets, and more. The problem is that to scale it, we need more people and funds. It is expensive to build the infastructure. Have you seen this? https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Eu-RyZt_Uas&t=698s
I’ve seen lots like the video you link. This is the proper scale — a few people. Let’s see if it can work on the constitution. Let’s get twenty people together with your software and run a few questions through this swarm. Things like “how would you reduce the power of the government to avoid overreach”, “how would you replace representative government to make better laws”, “is there a system that approaches true democracy”, and more questions like that. This should be easy and cheap. And if you’re right about the swarm, it should provide answers as to what we should do. Then publish it here on Substack. It can’t be about money — it has to be a demo that reaches the masses. It has to bypass the media so it can’t be stifled. I’m ready to join the effort, and I’m guessing there’s 19 others willing to join.
That is an interesting perspective: the PARAMECIUM. Single cell organism which some people have said the 3i comet looks like.. I saw it on Utube. I wish I could join you right now: I agree w/ some your re imaginings.. yet but I cannot abide by ZOHRAN MAMDANI.. nope the guy is out there. He needs a serious reality check. WE cannot save our systems like this. One cannot have have two diametrically opposed methods and beliefs and world view systems. I have a lot going on now. that must deal with. I am glad you are still doing well.. take care.
What has been proposed here has possibility of success, however I detect that there is no corrective system to deal with, correct, and thereby prevent other mistakes and failures. Perhaps you have some idea on that matter but did not articulate it herein.
I believe that the main failure of Communism has been that there are no sanctions against failure because all in supervisory chain parrot the Party Line ( approved narrative to be followed). When decisions are made upon specious facts that support and hold up the narrative, but the decision fails, nobody who pushed the Party Line can be found at fault to be sanctioned. So nobody is fired/imprisoned/shot due to failure. All such failures then are explained to Party Members as due to insufficient ardor or effort by those at the lowest level, or not enough money was spent to cover the project through to its successful completion. Never can communists blame the Party’s approved but faulty narrative, as being responsible.
Swarms of deciders would appear to be indirectly responsible for a decision that turns out badly. Group dynamics and the need to avoid loss of “face” would make swarm decision makers blend in with each other, and thus dilute individual responsibility for the group’s/swarm’s erroneous decision.
Additionally, swarm decision groups may take way too long to make decisions as each swarmer seeks their own comfort level of input facts which would not coincide with the other swarmers need for sufficient info upon which to base a decision.
The National Treasure known as Thomas Sowell said, “It is hard to imagine a …… more dangerous way of making decisions than by putting those decisions in the hands of people who pay no price for being wrong.”
Proof of efficacy could be seen from a test: Town of 5,000 with small fire, police, roads, water/sewer departments. Take 50 citizens to be swarm deciders and make them be the City Commission. Document results. After two years, see how well things have worked. (Note:having spent 22years in such a small town as an official, I think this would be a fair test of your proposal.)
Perhaps some Libertarians like the Koch brothers would financially back this type of test. Best wishes for success ! !
Also when you think about it, what is the Senate? Congress? It is a form of decentralized group problem solving that worked for a long time. Until it was corrupted.
We 100% agree with this "The National Treasure known as Thomas Sowell said, “It is hard to imagine a …… more dangerous way of making decisions than by putting those decisions in the hands of people who pay no price for being wrong.”
Skin in the game matters.
Also testing it on smaller systems is 100% correct too. We start small then scale. But for the record we have already tested it on other small systems such as businesses.
But most of your other hesitations - as for no accountability - that already happens now. There is zero (see Epstein). Members of a swarm should only be accounabile for not being corrupted and acting in good faith. Those who abuse this should be punished. Otherwise, all the other concerns are testable and fixable.
Trust leaders? How about having no leaders?
yes! But we still need good systems.
I’m very interested in this, but every time I read one of your posts, you link to something but don’t actually engage in these systems you just talk about. Let’s actually use the system and make a decision based on swarm intelligence on a small scale. Here on Substack. Like you say, there’s no time for procrastination. Pick a subject, or we could start with a constitutional convention to edit the constitution to incorporate swarm intelligence. I’m in.
We do this very often already for several busnesses. It has also been tested many times for predictive markets, and more. The problem is that to scale it, we need more people and funds. It is expensive to build the infastructure. Have you seen this? https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Eu-RyZt_Uas&t=698s
I’ve seen lots like the video you link. This is the proper scale — a few people. Let’s see if it can work on the constitution. Let’s get twenty people together with your software and run a few questions through this swarm. Things like “how would you reduce the power of the government to avoid overreach”, “how would you replace representative government to make better laws”, “is there a system that approaches true democracy”, and more questions like that. This should be easy and cheap. And if you’re right about the swarm, it should provide answers as to what we should do. Then publish it here on Substack. It can’t be about money — it has to be a demo that reaches the masses. It has to bypass the media so it can’t be stifled. I’m ready to join the effort, and I’m guessing there’s 19 others willing to join.
The French knew this years ago, they made a good start "Off with their heads"
why hasn't there been questioning of Airport Security in that . . isn't there a way to make travel safe, without violating the CONSTITUTION?
Not sure we see how this fits here?
its a problem begging to be solved - fact is that the entire TSA fiasco was built on LIES & FRAUD . . . AMERICA has a very serious problem.
That is an interesting perspective: the PARAMECIUM. Single cell organism which some people have said the 3i comet looks like.. I saw it on Utube. I wish I could join you right now: I agree w/ some your re imaginings.. yet but I cannot abide by ZOHRAN MAMDANI.. nope the guy is out there. He needs a serious reality check. WE cannot save our systems like this. One cannot have have two diametrically opposed methods and beliefs and world view systems. I have a lot going on now. that must deal with. I am glad you are still doing well.. take care.